[rp-ml] RE: some questions about RP technologies / Future of STL format

From: Blasch, Larry <LBlasch_at_OPW-FC.com>
Date: Fri Apr 23 2004 - 18:45:02 EEST

Nick, Charles and List,

Intel has announced the formulation of the 3D Industry Forum (3DIF). The
purpose of the organization is to recruit members of the 3D industry for the
discovery, definition, development and deployment of a common file format
for sharing and viewing of CAD data via the Internet, Web and other media.
Check out: http://www.3dif.org/index.php

If the needs/wants/hopes for RP data structure and content were identified
and posted, perhaps they would be considered in this attempt at a standard.
If RP industry experts don't participate in attempts shch as this, we may
never move beyond this point.

Larry Blasch

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Overy [mailto:charles@lgmmodel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:03 PM
To: Osbornmail@aol.com
Cc: rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi
Subject: RE: some questions about RP technologies / Future of STL format

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C42798.8C2BF5E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nick,

Long time in answering this thread. There appear to me to be two possible
course of action. First is to move toward an improved mesh format that is
in the public domain. Certainly in our world that would be 3DS. VRML is
seems has come to a dead end but perhaps it will come back again. We found
endless compatability problems with VRML.

The other way to go is, like you said, for RP machines to support a common
slice format. This is perhaps more do-able in the near term. Allow middle-
ware sofware pre processors to export the slice format much like Magics
does.

Charles
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Osbornmail@aol.com [mailto:Osbornmail@aol.com]
  Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 2:51 PM
  To: cwho@lgmmodel.com
  Cc: rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi
  Subject: Re: some questions about RP technologies / Future of STL format

  Charles

  A good point, but (without wishing to re-hash all the previous comments on
this topic) what do you recommend be done (realistically, commercially,
etc.) in order to improve the appeal of RP and help extend the market /
applicability? Having recently attended the Solid Modelling show in the UK
(3D CAD show with a smattering of RP stirred into the mix) I don't see it as
a priority for the CAD vendors right now (am I wrong?).

  We know how many zillions of facets you have to model into a piece of
jewellery (for example) in order to get it to build in a half decent
shape...surely as the RP machines get better and better at building hi res.
parts then this issue will become more and more important? Are we
predicting that before much longer the STL file format will be exposed and
found wanting?

  The crude answer is to chuck more computing power at the problem and stick
with triangles. A more elegant solution may include slicing IGES files (for
instance) into CLI files (for instance) which a number of machine vendors
have toyed with in the past.

  I am constantly amazed at the number of people (e.g. design engineers
involved in manufacturing industries) who still have ansolutely no idea what
an STL file is...but maybe that's just me.

  There has GOT to be a better way...

  Regards

  Nick

  Nick Osborn
  Director
  Fenland RP Ltd
  Mobile: +44 (0) 7881 92 00 38
  Tel: +44 (0) 1406 350 124
  Fax: +44 (0) 1406 350 183
  www.fenlandrp.co.uk

  In a message dated 05/04/2004 18:11:46 GMT Standard Time,
charles@lgmmodel.com writes:

    Subj:RE: some questions about RP technologies
    Date:05/04/2004 18:11:46 GMT Standard Time
    From:charles@lgmmodel.com
    Reply-to:cwho@lgmmodel.com
    To:rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi
    Sent from the Internet

>how to transfer 3D
> > > solid model to neutral format such as STL or others

    To my knowledge, there is no way, within the "accepted" stl format to
    describe anything other than surface geometry. STL does not do a very
good
    job at that either! I will go out on a limb and say that, for various
    reasons, the two efforts at color description within the STL file have,
to
    date, failed.

    I think that yours is one of many cases that expose the inadequacy of
the
    STL format as the basis for RP into the future. IMHO, STL is a
significant
    obstacle for the continuing development of RP in new markets and new
    applications.

    This is something the list has debated in the past, unfortunately
without
    significant input from machine vendors who, for obvious reasons, need to
be
    significant party to any effective solution. What is the correct forum
for
    ongoing discussion? How might it be facilitated?

    Charles
    LGM

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi [mailto:owner-rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi]On
> Behalf Of Amy Hu
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 5:56 PM
> To: psuomala@sandersdesign.com; rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi
> Subject: Re: some questions about RP technologies
>
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Thanks a lot for your response.
>
> You said it. My question is very general. From the theory of
additive
> fabrication, all RPTs can produce functional gradient material produts
or
> heterogeneous material object which material composition can vary by
given
> pattern. Actually, by then there are only a few RPTs which can
> complete this
> task, to name one I have knew is LENS. LENS can fabricate the
functional
> gradient material by controlling the power of laser and powder
deposition
> speed. But this process is random and the pattern of material
composition
> only can be know after fabrication. What I want to know is if I have
> designed ah heterogeneous objects which have a specified material
> distribution, how RPTs can fabricate automatically? What kind of
processes
> and software have to be designed or modified spefically? I am not sure
> whether I have make my question clear. Anyway, thanks for your help.
>
> Yuna
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Suomala" <psuomala@sandersdesign.com>
> To: "Amy Hu" <hu_yuna@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 3:57 PM
> Subject: Re: some questions about RP technologies
>
>
> > Amy Hu wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > How are you doing?
> > >
> > > I am a graduate student in Clemson University. I have some
problems
> > > about how to fabricate heterogeneous metal parts by using LENS or
> > > other possible RP technologies. If I had a part with specified
> > > material composition (have some gradient locally), are there any
solid
> > > modeling software can represent this kind of parts, how to
transfer 3D
> > > solid model to neutral format such as STL or others? If somebody
has
> > > this kind of experience, could you please give me some hints?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot and have a good day.
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> >
> > Your questions seem rather general. Have you searched in your own
"back
> > yard" ?
> > http://www.vr.clemson.edu/rp/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C42798.8C2BF5E0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Nick,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Long=20
time in answering this thread.&nbsp; There appear to me to be two =
possible=20
course of action.&nbsp; First is to move toward an improved mesh format =
that is=20
in the public domain.&nbsp; Certainly in our world that would be 3DS. =
VRML is=20
seems has come to a dead end but perhaps it will come back again. We =
found=20
endless compatability problems with VRML.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
other way to go is, like you said,&nbsp;&nbsp;for RP machines =
to&nbsp;support a=20
common slice format.&nbsp; This is perhaps more do-able in the near =
term.&nbsp;=20
Allow middle- ware sofware pre processors to export the slice format =
much like=20
Magics does.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D625055017-21042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Charles</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Osbornmail@aol.com =

  [mailto:Osbornmail@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 08, 2004 =
2:51=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> cwho@lgmmodel.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: some questions about RP =
technologies=20
  / Future of STL format<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  size=3D2 PTSIZE=3D"10">Charles<BR><BR>A good point, but (without =
wishing to=20
  re-hash all the previous comments on this topic) what do you recommend =
be done=20
  (realistically, commercially, etc.) in order to improve the appeal of =
RP and=20
  help extend the market / applicability?&nbsp; Having recently attended =
the=20
  Solid Modelling show in the UK (3D CAD show with a smattering of RP =
stirred=20
  into the mix) I don't see it as a priority for the CAD vendors right =
now (am I=20
  wrong?).<BR><BR>We know how many zillions of facets you have to model =
into a=20
  piece of jewellery (for example) in order to get it to build in a half =
decent=20
  shape...surely as the RP machines get better and better at building hi =
res.=20
  parts then this issue will become more and more important?&nbsp; Are =
we=20
  predicting that before much longer the STL file format will be exposed =
and=20
  found wanting?<BR><BR>The crude answer is to chuck more computing =
power at the=20
  problem and stick with triangles.&nbsp; A more elegant solution may =
include=20
  slicing IGES files (for instance) into CLI files (for instance) which =
a number=20
  of machine vendors have toyed with in the past.<BR><BR>I am constantly =
amazed=20
  at the number of people (e.g. design engineers involved in =
manufacturing=20
  industries) who still have ansolutely no idea what an STL file =
is...but maybe=20
  that's just me.<BR><BR>There has GOT to be a better=20
  way...<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Nick<BR><BR>Nick =
Osborn<BR>Director<BR>Fenland RP=20
  Ltd<BR>Mobile: +44 (0) 7881 92 00 38<BR>Tel: +44 (0) 1406 350 =
124<BR>Fax: +44=20
  (0) 1406 350 183<BR>www.fenlandrp.co.uk<BR><BR>In a message dated =
05/04/2004=20
  18:11:46 GMT Standard Time, charles@lgmmodel.com writes:<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Subj:<B>RE: some questions about RP technologies=20
    </B><BR>Date:05/04/2004 18:11:46 GMT Standard Time<BR>From:<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:charles@lgmmodel.com">charles@lgmmodel.com</A><BR>Reply-to=
:<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:cwho@lgmmodel.com">cwho@lgmmodel.com</A><BR>To:<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi">rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi</A><BR><I>Sent =
from the=20
    Internet </I><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt;how to transfer 3D<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
    solid model to neutral format such as STL or others<BR><BR>To my =
knowledge,=20
    there is no way, within the "accepted" stl format to<BR>describe =
anything=20
    other than surface geometry.&nbsp; STL does not do a very =
good<BR>job at=20
    that either!&nbsp; I will go out on a limb and say that, for=20
    various<BR>reasons, the two efforts at color description within the =
STL file=20
    have, to<BR>date, failed.<BR><BR>I think that yours is one of many =
cases=20
    that expose the inadequacy of the<BR>STL format as the basis for RP =
into the=20
    future.&nbsp; IMHO, STL is a significant<BR>obstacle for the =
continuing=20
    development of RP in new markets and =
new<BR>applications.<BR><BR>This is=20
    something the list has debated in the past, unfortunately=20
    without<BR>significant input from machine vendors who, for obvious =
reasons,=20
    need to be<BR>significant party to any effective solution.&nbsp; =
What is the=20
    correct forum for<BR>ongoing discussion?&nbsp; How might it be=20
    facilitated?<BR><BR><BR>Charles<BR>LGM<BR><BR>&gt; -----Original=20
    Message-----<BR>&gt; From: owner-rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi=20
    [mailto:owner-rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi]On<BR>&gt; Behalf Of Amy Hu<BR>&gt; =
Sent:=20
    Sunday, April 04, 2004 5:56 PM<BR>&gt; To: =
psuomala@sandersdesign.com;=20
    rp-ml@rapid.lpt.fi<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: some questions about RP=20
    technologies<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dear =
Paul,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    Thanks a lot for your response.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; You said =
it. My=20
    question is very general. From the theory of additive<BR>&gt; =
fabrication,=20
    all RPTs can produce functional gradient material produts or<BR>&gt; =

    heterogeneous material object which material composition can vary by =

    given<BR>&gt; pattern. Actually, by then there are only a few RPTs =
which=20
    can<BR>&gt; complete this<BR>&gt; task, to name one I have knew is =
LENS.=20
    LENS can fabricate the functional<BR>&gt; gradient material by =
controlling=20
    the power of laser and powder deposition<BR>&gt; speed. But this =
process is=20
    random and the pattern of material composition<BR>&gt; only can be =
know=20
    after fabrication. What I want to know is if I have<BR>&gt; designed =
ah=20
    heterogeneous objects which have a specified material<BR>&gt; =
distribution,=20
    how RPTs can fabricate automatically? What kind of processes<BR>&gt; =
and=20
    software have to be designed or modified spefically? I am not =
sure<BR>&gt;=20
    whether I have make my question clear. Anyway, thanks for your=20
    help.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Yuna<BR>&gt; ----- Original Message =
-----<BR>&gt;=20
    From: "Paul Suomala" &lt;psuomala@sandersdesign.com&gt;<BR>&gt; To: =
"Amy Hu"=20
    &lt;hu_yuna@hotmail.com&gt;<BR>&gt; Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 =
3:57=20
    PM<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: some questions about RP=20
    technologies<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Amy Hu wrote:<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; Hi all,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp; How are =
you=20
    doing?<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am a =
graduate=20
    student in Clemson University. I have some problems<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; about=20
    how to fabricate heterogeneous metal parts by using LENS or<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; other possible RP technologies. If I had a part with =
specified<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; material composition (have some gradient locally), are =
there any=20
    solid<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; modeling software can represent this kind of =
parts,=20
    how to transfer 3D<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; solid model to neutral format =
such as=20
    STL or others? If somebody has<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; this kind of =
experience,=20
    could you please give me some hints?<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt;&nbsp; Thanks a lot and have a good day.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; Best Regards<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Your questions seem =
rather=20
    general. Have you searched in your own "back<BR>&gt; &gt; yard" =
?<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; http://www.vr.clemson.edu/rp/<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =

    &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  =
&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE=
></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C42798.8C2BF5E0--
Received on Fri Apr 23 18:10:22 2004

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Tue Jan 12 2010 - 19:37:11 EET